AndyB in conversation with Mark Smith – Eurostar.m4a: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

AndyB in conversation with Mark Smith – Eurostar.m4a: this m4a audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Speaker1:
Hi, this is Andy B of AndyBTravels and DiscoverByRail, my travel architect service. Today I'm Riding the Rails with Mark Smith. Some of you will know him as the Man in Seat61. Mark welcome on board!

Speaker2:
Hello, Andy.

Speaker1:
So would you like to say a little bit about yourself, Mark?

Speaker2:
Well, I run the website, the Man in Seat61.com, which tries to help people take the train not plane around the world, both in the UK and in Europe and worldwide.

Speaker1:
Excellent. So I guess with lock down and the focus on the environment which has come through from lock down, the site is going to start getting busy when people can travel again.

Speaker2:
Well, I hope so. For us travellers, it's been a very difficult, it's been difficult of course for everyone. But if you if you love travel and going to different places, it's been particularly tough because, of course, we can't.

Speaker1:
I guess over the past few months, the the website's been a little quieter than usual. But are you seeing an uptick now that people are looking as its looking positive on the horizon, that we can travel again?

Speaker2:
People are talking about travelling, but I think they're being sensible now after so many lockdowns and just waiting until they have got the definite go ahead before they actually seriously start planning and booking journeys.

Speaker1:
So do you think we'll see a see a stampede at St Pancras on the 17th of May, the day the UK Lockdown ends.

Speaker2:
I may be at the head of that stampede? I really might.

Speaker1:
Fantastic. I will be just behind you, Mark, carrying your bags as usual. Mark and I have done quite a few trips together, geeks on tour I think we could christen them. I don't know if you'd agree with that.

Speaker2:
Travel professionals, please, Andy, please.

Speaker1:
Ok, travel pros on tour. I thought today would be quite useful. Just talking about St Pancras to have a chat about Eurostar. Obviously, it's been running since 1994, so it's now a very well established business. We've both travelled on Eurostar multiple times to various destinations. I think it would be useful just to have a chat about the service, where the service goes to and what our experiences are, and perhaps more importantly, where can you Eurostar go in the future? So, Mark, did you get to travel on one of the inaugural trains or pre prelaunch trains of Eurostar back in 94?

Speaker2:
Yeah, I was lucky enough as a member of railway staff to get a trip on one of the London to Paris test runs in early 1994 before the start of public service. I can remember they were still getting to grips with the equipment on board. The coffee was cold because they hadn't worked out how to make the coffee machine work.

Speaker1:
Sacrilege.

Speaker2:
Everyone cheered when we came out of the Channel Tunnel. No, and the conductor announced Welcome to France. It was and it was a surreal experience, travelling on a very obviously French designed, French built train through Peckham Rye, Catford and Beckenham Junction and places like that. It was like an error message going off on your head. This does not compute, but it was it was quite incredible.

Speaker1:
So I wonder, what are French and Belgian cousins thought trundling through Peckham Rye and Penge?

Speaker2:
It would have been an exciting new experience for them, I'm sure.

Speaker1:
Bienvenue UK. I was lucky I didn't go on one of the prelaunch trains, but I did travel on it in early December 94 through to Brussels. And you can imagine the excitement of going through the tunnel for the first time, visiting Brussels by train. It's just it was just such a new novel experience. But today it's just one of those things we do.

Speaker2:
I guess it's become routine, hasn't it? It's it has changed the way we travel between the UK and the continent, certainly Paris and Brussels. I mean, what is it, 70, perhaps even 80 percent share now of the air rail market between London and Paris?

Speaker1:
Yeah. That they've actually have done a very good job. Some sometimes, as you know, Mark, I'm a tad critical of Eurostar, but I think they probably get a good eight and a half out of ten for me. I don't know what your score would be for them.

Speaker2:
Oh, absolutely. Eight or nine out of ten. There are good service, great staff. They thought pretty much well, they've got the wifi, they've got the catering. They pretty much covered all the bases. And people like Eurostar, it's noticeable that when people when they do surveys about UK train travel, Eurostar is in a class apart. It still does have a glamour to it.

Speaker1:
Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely say say the glamour element. So also back in November 2007, with the move to St Pancras and then being able to travel all the way from London to Paris on a high speed line In my mind, that was a rebirth of Eurostar. St Pancras, the cathedral to railways, there's no better way of leaving the UK than departing St Pancras.

Speaker2:
It is one of the world's great stations, there's no doubt about that. It is fantastic. I do have to say, I miss the slow trundle through the southern region via Orpington and Tonbridge and Ashford a little bit because of course, it was like a tour past my career through my training grounds at Orpington and Tunbridge and through my old stations at Staplehurst and Headcorn. And so I do miss that a bit. But that's that's purely a personal thing.

Speaker1:
Did you shed a tear on your last trundle through the home counties before the high speed?

Speaker2:
I think I may. I think I may.

Speaker1:
Yeah, I can imagine you ensconced in your comfortable seat, a glass of wine in hand saying cheers to each of the stations as you pass through the

Speaker2:
Glass at each of my stations. That would be quite interesting by the time I got off from the other end.

Speaker1:
Well, one of the great one of the great things of travelling with you, Mark, of course, is your taste in wine. Well, I thoroughly enjoy travelling with you for the wines that you choose en route.

Speaker2:
Well, I did once go get told off for drinking some wine on a French TGV bound for the Spanish border by the conductor. I was I was drinking a Rioja and he said I should have been drinking a good French red.

Speaker1:
Well, actually, what you should be doing, I guess, is having two bottles, one for the French side, and then you switch over on the Spanish side. How do you find the service on Eurostar when you travel with them? I'm going to go to make a broad assumption here that you're quite fortunate that you're able to travel in comfort when you take the Eurostar in their first class.

Speaker2:
Well, sometimes I travel first class, sometimes I travel standard. I've occasionally when somebody has paid for me to go for business, I've occasionally tried the business premier, which is wonderful, the full champagne treatment. So I've got a good cross-section of experience and all the classes. It is nice when you can go first. That's true.

Speaker1:
Definitely.

Speaker2:
If you're travelling standard pop into Marks and Sparks get an individual bottle of the bubbly for about three quid and it gives you the sort of first class experience and a standard class. That's my that's my tip

Speaker1:
Marks and Spencers is going to be sold out of champagne on the 17th of May. Do you think the price difference on a as a regular passenger just is justified on a trip with Eurostar to pay for the standard premier?

Speaker2:
You get wine and food included. So you do get a lot more than just the extra leg room and extra space. It's really about what the market will bear. Sometimes the price difference isn't that great. I mean, it depends how the prices are moving because the prices are controlled separately. If it's a hundred and fifty pounds for one and fifty pounds for the other, it's probably not worth it. But if it's, seventy pounds and 95 pounds for the other. Why not pay the extra? So it just depends how the prices are moving.

Speaker1:
And I certainly know tour operators, when they sell package tours, including Eurostar, often have promotions, sometimes it's even a free upgrade to standard premier. So that's something you can't say no to if it's a free upgrade.

Speaker2:
Oh, absolutely. And of course, sometimes you are if you're going somewhere special, because let's face it, people don't travel every day. And if you're kicking off a journey somewhere far afield, it starts with Eurostar. And if you can possibly splurge on a first class trip to sort of toast the journey, it does make all the difference. I find I prefer if I'm going to pay the extra. I prefer paying it in the afternoon when you get the wine and the meal rather than just the breakfast, even if and I don't tend to have a glass of red at 7:00 in the morning.

Speaker1:
Well, you clearly haven't travelled through Manchester Airport, Mark, where 7:00 a.m. in the morning. Well, not so much red wine, but this pints of beer left, right and center. I think the Eurostar crowd is a little more sophisticated, I think. With Eurostar these days going through to the Netherlands, that's probably one route where I could justify to myself paying that little bit extra, even if it is slightly more than I would pay to Paris Brussels, maybe 20 to 25 pounds more would be my ballpark figure. But I think think for Amsterdam, because of the duration of journey, I think I would be willing to pay more and travelling first class. What's the journey? Time to reach Amsterdam these days?

Speaker2:
About three hours fifty.

Speaker1:
Yeah. So you could get your money's worth on that.

Speaker2:
Yeah. I think you probably probably could.

Speaker1:
With the Amsterdam service do Eurostar have a business lounge at the station in Amsterdam?

Speaker2:
No, I don't think they do.

Speaker1:
Because, of course, when we've traveled through Amsterdam previously with a first class ticket, you had access to the Dutch Railways Lounge on Amsterdam Station, which is quite a nice little haven of peace and tranquility. Did they did. Do we know if you can use that lounge with the Eurostar ticket?

Speaker2:
I think you can, because I think it's any first class international journey that is sponsored by NS International, who, of course, are Eurostar partners in the Netherlands. So, yes, I think you can, but I have to say that I would almost prefer heading the other end of platform to platform one, and heading for the cafe premier class with delightfully retro interior. And of course, you can say hello to the cockatoo on the bar.

Speaker1:
That's it. I was trying to remember if it was a parrot or cockatoo. Yes. Yes. Now the infamous cockatoo. Yeah, I. I know with your site, Mark, quite often you give tips to your users. So Le Tren Bleur in Paris Gare de Lyon and I certainly know the one in Amsterdam is a favourite of yours. So have you travelled on the Amsterdam service in both directions have you?

Speaker2:
Yeah, I was on the inaugural first public London to Amsterdam, Eurostar and on a press Eurostar, the special press trip from Amsterdam back to London. I was waiting for them to launch this service to Amsterdam for a long time because it's a key destination. It's going to become part of Eurostar core destinations. It's got a very competitive journey time. It's one of the busiest airports in Europe and it's got year round travel, both business and leisure. Of course, although we keep talking about Amsterdam, we mustn't forget Rotterdam and Rotterdam is an up and coming tourist destination. There's actually lots to see. A maritime museum, the SS Rotterdam, and of course, lots of businesses have their HQ in Rotterdam, often not far from the station. And that's only three hours from central London to central Rotterdam. So that's why I think it's going to be the big surprise of the Eurostar London Amsterdam service how important Rotterdam becomes

Speaker1:
And also Rotterdam is quite a connecting point for other other parts of the Netherlands. So, for example, the lovely little town of Delft, you know, just change Rotterdam and then hop on a train on to Delft. The Netherlands is one of those destinations as well, I think could be developed as a as a couple of hub stations. So we're talking about people traveling London to Amsterdam, but travelling onwards into Germany, or even in the future, picking up a night train in Amsterdam.

Speaker2:
It does work. It is a long way around compared to going via Brussels. And of course, Amsterdam isn't a Rail Team hub. So whereas your connection might be protected in Brussels and Cologne by the Rail Team arrangement. It wouldn't be protected if you were changing in Amsterdam. But if you want to stop off for a few hours in Amsterdam, well, what's not to like? And it does make it an attractive option. Catch your morning, Eurostar. Spend a day in Amsterdam, catch the sleeper to Vienna.

Speaker1:
Yep, absolutely. That's interesting. Mark, I know you surprised me about NS International not being a member of Rail Team for connections.

Speaker2:
Well, Thalys is, the Rail Team arrangement, of course, only applies to designated Rail Team hub stations. Oh, NS is a member through Thalys and DB but Amsterdam isn't one of the connectional hubs because it's not seen is seen as an originating station. It's not seen as a connecting hub like Brussels or Cologne or even Paris. So until it's designated as a connection, you're not protected in the same way you are going through Brussels and Cologne, which is a bit of a shame because, yes, it does take longer. Yes, it is a roundabout route, but it's because you only change once, whereas to get to say, Berlin, you change at Brussels and Cologne thus changing twice. It is quite an attractive route for a lot of people for quite a few reasons.

Speaker1:
So I think the takeaway from today is Mark Smith says Amsterdam is a Rail Team hub.

Speaker2:
Let's make it Rail Team hub. Absolutely.

Speaker1:
Yeah, good. So when I say currently, obviously Covid times things have changed, but normally we have Eurostar leaving from London, St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and Ashford International under normal circumstances, and then in France, Calais, Lille and Paris and Belgium, Brussels and the Netherlands, Rotterdam and Amsterdam. And then they have the shall we call them, additional trains or maybe even esoteric trains. So you have Disney are the ones to down to the south of France. Just remind me, the ones to the south of France where they are stopping once they get into France.

Speaker2:
How Lille, Avignon and Marseilles.

Speaker1:
And is it is it the case that on the inbound they still have the Lille shuffle?

Speaker2:
Yeah. That is it's it's the unavoidable downside of security and border controls for the Channel Tunnel and the U.K. And those are two different things. People sometimes think if they just check passports on the train, that will be fine. You can't X-ray everyone's bags on the train. And it's still a legal requirement that anyone on a train going through the Channel Tunnel has to have their bags x-rayed, there has to be security, a secure train and. And that's incredibly difficult to do without the Lille shuffle.

Speaker1:
And I do I do remember back in the day when the Eurostar train used to originate in Avignon Centre station, so perfectly placed in the center of Avignon, whereas the TGV is that little a little way out. And they did X-ray you at Avignon Center. So it was a seamless journey back to London. So in a way, it shows it can be done then.

Speaker2:
Yeah, they had the space to do it. But the Lyon is a well known tourist destination, so it's well worth serving. Eurostar tell me that Marseilles was the big surprise with a remarkable number of people going to Marseilles as opposed to Lyon or Avignon. And I'm not surprised because I love Marseilles has a strange reputation, but actually there's lots to see. It's a great place for a short break.

Speaker1:
Oh, yes, definitely. And again, another hub station. So you can turn left along the Cote d'Azur or you can turn right along the coast and then go further further west. Yeah, Marseilles is one of those, shall we say, hidden gems.

Speaker2:
Hidden in plain view, yes.

Speaker1:
Yeah, most definitely. And I always remember going to Marseilles, again a number of years ago and the public transport, the metro stopping at eight o'clock in the evening, which always struck me as a little bit odd. I don't know if that's changed now. So you kind of hit by the Marseilles taxi mafia. If you had an arrival after eight o'clock in the evening and needed to get anywhere. This was always one of my memories was with a colleague when I was working with railbookers. We went down to Marseilles. We got a taxi from the station to the hotel, and we were being hosted in the hotel. The taxi driver ripped us off and we made it quite plain that we thought he ripped us off and he was like, no, no, no. And blah, blah, blah, blah. And we'd make it made a note of the number plates and his license number mentioned it to the people who were hosting us at the end of the dinner. A very sheepish taxi driver came in with an envelope with our taxi fare refunded. Brilliant, but I don't know if he's still ripping people off. But there you go. Some something I'd love to see from Eurostar on my wish list is a service to Bordeaux from London. Do you think that will ever come off?

Speaker2:
Well, maybe I'm underestimating the claret business and the travelling to and fro between the U.K. and Bordeaux, but it strikes me as a great holiday destination, but very seasonal. And I think probably Cologne strikes me as the more obvious destination. I mean, it's the same sort of distance as Amsterdam. So we're talking a sort of airline beating three hour, 55 minutes to get there. It's the gateway to the whole of Germany. It would not only remove that awkward 20 minute connection, which you may or may not make in Brussels and speed up the journey. It would turn a journey into one change journey to pretty much any major city you liked across Germany, Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurtand Munich. It's a major city in its own right, and that would sort of generate year round business and leisure travel. I'm not quite sure where Bordeaux comes in. Although you can reach out and back in the day, as you can with Marseilles.C ologne is even closer. Yeah, it's difficult to say, but my money is on Cologne. And of course, with Eurostar still planning to merge with Thalys to form something tentatively called Greenspeed.

Speaker1:
Greenspeed, yes.

Speaker2:
We're likely to see, at the very least, better integrated timetables and fares between London and Cologne, if not greater likelihood through service one day if they can sort out the logistics of border control and security in a very, very busy station.

Speaker1:
Yes, indeed. I wonder, though, with with Cologne if it's counterintuitive, but if it was Cologn Deutz Station, the station on the other side of the river

Speaker2:
A greater chance of that than doing it in Cologne Hauptbahnhof. I think. On the other hand, if you're serving Cologne as a gateway, you'd need to make sure you had the connections. This would defeat he object of the exercise, if you have to catch a second to get you to the Hauptbahnhof and then catch a third train on to Berlin or or Munich or Nuremberg.

Speaker1:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Although I have noticed in the past number of years more trains stopping at Deutz particularly coming off the high speed line from Frankfurt and stopping at Deutz and then going up to the Rhine Ruhr region. So I don't know if there is any plan to make it a secondary hub in Cologne. And of course, could the Eurostar continue from Cologne to Frankfurt? That for me that would be amazing because of the connectivity out of Frankfurt to basically the whole of Europe.

Speaker2:
Yeah, that would make it even better. One change in Frankfurt and you can reach Vienna. You can even reach Zagreb.

Speaker1:
Yeah, that would be a game changer. I think Eurostar certainly from the UK perspective, is the one train company that whenever they innovate, it becomes a game changer, as you say, on Amsterdam -now I wonder what percentage of the traffic they've captured from the airlines.

Speaker2:
Well, I think covid-19 came along just as they were bound to that. So I think this is the Amsterdam service is still a work in progress. Once we get this pandemic behind us. I have no doubt whatsoever that the Amsterdam service is going to take off, if you'll pardon the expression, and capture a significant share of the air rail market. When we get the power sockets, tables, Wi-Fi, we've got room to work. You've got you stay connected the whole journey. It's very competitive with air in a very big market,

Speaker1:
Most definitely. With Eurostar, at the moment I'm living up in the north of England, and sometimes Eurostar can be a little tricky to actually work into a trip because of the expense of the UK addons. Do you get much feedback from users of the site about that?

Speaker2:
Oh, yes, it's definitely an issue. Now, Eurostar used to have through booking from over a hundred different UK towns and cities as far afield as Glasgow and Edinburgh and Manchester and Bristol. That got broken when Eurostar upgraded their booking system. But they tell me that once we get the pandemic behind us, that will come back. I certainly hope it will. And what that meant is you could make one booking from Bristol or Manchester or Edinburgh, Weber to Paris or Brussels or Amsterdam, one booking totally through ticketed with an attractive add on price that make made it affordable to catch the train up to London and catch the Eurostar. One slight problem with that, of course, is that the UK trains only open for booking eight to nine weeks, twelve at the most, whereas Eurostar open six months ahead. So I think what they need to do there is talk to the train companies and find some way of working the add ons with the full six months booking horizon that Eurostar uses or making it possible to buy the British add on closer to the time after you've booked your Eurostar ticket, which you used to be able to do when they had a staffed travel office down in Ashford. But of course, now when everything's online, you don't have that option yet. If they can get around that problem, then these three fares will make it a lot cheaper to travel from the regions to Paris and Brussels. Even if we don't have through trains, if we have through tickets at affordable prices, that's the next best thing.

Speaker1:
Yeah, most definitely. Actually for Paris and Brussels is perhaps not so bad from the regions in that you could catch an afternoon Eurostar and then travelling from Manchester would be an off peak train. But if you wanted to go further into Europe, you really are stuck with the early morning trains to connect with a Eurostar that then allows onward connections further into Europe. So it's those early morning trains, which we do call peak trains,b ut as we've been discussing, Mark, does the peak exist anymore and will it exist in the future?

Speaker2:
Well, for long distance travel, it might well do the commute to travel I suspect we'll see empty car parks on a Friday and possibly reduced car parking on your Thursday and Monday. But I have a nasty feeling that Tuesday and Wednesday might be just as busy as it has has been before. But one thing we're forgetting with that might help with this is that the sleeper trains returning to Amsterdam or Brussel. Brusselsto Vienna, with Brussels to Berlin and even Brussels to Copenhagen on the cards, that means an afternoon Eurostar, which gives you time to get off peak train from the regions, your late afternoon, early evening Eurostar to Brussels and then to sleep the trains. It actually works quite well,

Speaker1:
Which would be a rather civilized way to go. So, you know, you're not having an early start from the north of England or Scotland. Time for a quick drink in St Pancras, early dinner in Brussels. Where is your tip in Brussels, by the way, for grabbing a bite to eat.

Speaker2:
I haven't found anywhere around the Brussels meeting station. It's a bit of a shame, really. But the Pullman Hotel bar, it's not the cheapest beer in the world, about nine euros for a pint or a half litre or whatever it was. But if you consider that entry fee to your VIP departure lounge with Wi-Fi and the charging station for your phone, that's actually quite a nice place to wait for your train if you've got an hour or two to kill between trains.

Speaker1:
Yeah. Is that the hotel that's actually built into the railway station

Speaker2:
The entrance door from the station is right opposite the Eurostar terminal. Pretty much.

Speaker1:
Ok. Well, they're onto a winner there. Are they are they promoting themselves as a stopover hotel?

Speaker2:
I think they should do. But at the moment you'll find it on Seat61, of course, as a top tip when catching the sleeper to Vienna. But yea, I think they're missing an opportunity there.

Speaker1:
Absolutely. Mark, I think just you saying Top Tips, I've learned so much from your website, put a lot of it into practice with all my travels. I think and I hope we can do a series of these conversations and share more of your tips with people out there to get ready to start travelling again.

Speaker2:
Absolutely, and when we can travel, maybe we should do these podcasts on location.

Speaker1:
Ha, that's an idea!

Speaker2:
Some European cities and get travelling.

Speaker1:
Perfect, perfect. Mark, thank you very much for your time today. Really enjoyed chatting with you. And I hope we can get a little series going of these. Thanks a lot, Mark. See you soon. Bye bye, Mark.

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